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ryukenden

Shall we write a letter to Dr Wendy Burn?

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I took CASC in Jaunary and I only passed 7 stations. I passed 6 stations in the morning session and only passed 1 station in the afternoon. I felt my performance and manangement of tasks were same both for morning and afternoon sessions. But to pass only 1 station out of 8 while I passed 6 stations in the morning was unbelievable. Generally morning session is harder to pass. This is second time. First time was when I passed 11 stations. I passed 7 Link stations out of 8 and only managed to pass 4 stations in the afternoon. This time is a bit more strange to pass only 1 stations out of 8. May be there is discrepency between batches of examiners. I prevously passed 11, 10 stations etc.... and I don't believe my skills are declining.

Then I got a letter from Wendy Burn saying that the feedbacks would be helpful. How radiculous is it to expect this with such rubbish feedback forms?

Shall we write a letter to Dr Wendy Burn with the following points.

1) It would be better to have one session of exam rather than in two sessions. The same as the first CASC exam - 12 link stations only. Single 7 minute stations are more beneficial to the local candidates, IMO.

For Medicine which is more advanced than psychiatry, PACES is only done in one session. Might be better to do CASC in one session if Don Valley Stadium is to be demolished.

2) Helpful feedbacks. Just tick box feedbacks are not helping and misleading people.

3) Video recording. With millions of pounds surplus, why can't they incorporate this esp if they're going to do CASC exams in London headquarters. That way, some examiners might not be able to fail you because of your look, color, accent or some other radiculous ideas (e.g. I put my jumper on (under the coat) in the afternoon session because I felt a bit cold and may be I failed in more stations because of that. Who knows?). OR if they can't do it. Have 2 examiners for each station so that one can't do whatever he or she likes. There are 2 examiners for PACES and same for old part 2 exam. Why can't they do it especially if they can change the exam format to one section 12 link station CASC like first exam?

4) New candidate numbers. Examiners are not stupid. They will know whether you're an old candidate by having a look at your candidate number. That might have "bad" first impression and "Halo effect". May be they better issue a new candidate number each time.

I would like to say "Enough is enough".

May be we should take the point 3) further with MPs or Organizations e.g. BMA, BAPIO to ensure the quality of the exam like PACES. If PACES can do with 2 examiners, why not CASC?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Edited by ryukenden
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I took CASC in Jaunary and I only passed 7 stations. I passed 6 stations in the morning session and only passed 1 station in the afternoon. I felt my performance and manangement of tasks were same both for morning and afternoon sessions. But to pass only 1 station out of 8 while I passed 6 stations in the morning was unbelievable. Generally morning session is harder to pass. This is second time. First time was when I passed 11 stations. I passed 7 Link stations out of 8 and only managed to pass 4 stations in the afternoon. This time is a bit more strange to pass only 1 stations out of 8. May be there is discrepency between batches of examiners. I prevously passed 11, 10 stations etc.... and I don't believe my skills are declining.

Then I got a letter from Wendy Burn saying that the feedbacks would be helpful. How radiculous is it to expect this with such rubbish feedback forms?

Shall we write a letter to Dr Wendy Burn with the following points.

1) It would be better to have one session of exam rather than in two sessions. The same as the first CASC exam - 12 link stations only. Single 7 minute stations are more beneficial to the local candidates, IMO.

For Medicine which is more advanced than psychiatry, PACES is only done in one session. Might be better to do CASC in one session if Don Valley Stadium is to be demolished.

2) Helpful feedbacks. Just tick box feedbacks are not helping and misleading people.

3) Video recording. With millions of pounds surplus, why can't they incorporate this esp if they're going to do CASC exams in London headquarters. That way, some examiners might not be able to fail you because of your look, color, accent or some other radiculous ideas (e.g. I put my jumper on (under the coat) in the afternoon session because I felt a bit cold and may be I failed in more stations because of that. Who knows?). OR if they can't do it. Have 2 examiners for each station so that one can't do whatever he or she likes. There are 2 examiners for PACES and same for old part 2 exam. Why can't they do it especially if they can change the exam format to one section 12 link station CASC like first exam?

4) New candidate numbers. Examiners are not stupid. They will know whether you're an old candidate by having a look at your candidate number. That might have "bad" first impression and "Halo effect". May be they better issue a new candidate number each time.

I would like to say "Enough is enough".

May be we should take the point 3) further with MPs or Organizations e.g. BMA, BAPIO to ensure the quality of the exam like PACES. If PACES can do with 2 examiners, why not CASC?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Fully endorsed.

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Hi guys

I totally agree with u.I'm ready to email Dr. Wendy about this and think we can arrange for this together. We can also contact the academy of medical royal colleges,BMA and anyone else who can help. We have to take an action, this has gone too far. Plz contact me via PM to coordinate together, thanks.

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When was your CASC Exam-I mean which day-1st or the last day?

It was on Thursday.

Hi guys

I totally agree with u.I'm ready to email Dr. Wendy about this and think we can arrange for this together. We can also contact the academy of medical royal colleges,BMA and anyone else who can help. We have to take an action, this has gone too far. Plz contact me via PM to coordinate together, thanks.

Yes. Too much. They're playing with many people's lives. Why can't they arrange the same conditions as other colleges such as 2 examiners for each station.

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Is there any body who can write a letter using the above points? I am not very good with writing. I appreciate any volunteer.

Once the draft letter is done, I will pay for the UK native writer ,whom I use for my projects, to proof read and rewrite the sentences as appropriate.

Edited by ryukenden

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Is Wendy not aware of the feedback letters?

Do you not think that the college is aware of how other colleges conduct exams?

I may sound negative but nothing is going to change by complaining to anyone or to any organisation. I dont think that anything has happened since BAPIO has taken up exam issues of the GPs. Patient groups criticised GP candidates for struggling to pass CSA within the stipulated time.

Our college thinks that it is up to the individual if he has to pursue exams or not.If there is a short of SPRs / Consultants then AUTOMATICALLY CASC will become relatively east exam.

Nothing is fair.

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I am up for it. Let me know what to do.

I think we should advise for video recording and detail feedback , so that examiner would be accountable for their actions .

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I took CASC in Jaunary and I only passed 7 stations. I passed 6 stations in the morning session and only passed 1 station in the afternoon. I felt my performance and manangement of tasks were same both for morning and afternoon sessions. But to pass only 1 station out of 8 while I passed 6 stations in the morning was unbelievable. Generally morning session is harder to pass. This is second time. First time was when I passed 11 stations. I passed 7 Link stations out of 8 and only managed to pass 4 stations in the afternoon. This time is a bit more strange to pass only 1 stations out of 8. May be there is discrepency between batches of examiners. I prevously passed 11, 10 stations etc.... and I don't believe my skills are declining.

Then I got a letter from Wendy Burn saying that the feedbacks would be helpful. How radiculous is it to expect this with such rubbish feedback forms?

Shall we write a letter to Dr Wendy Burn with the following points.

1) It would be better to have one session of exam rather than in two sessions. The same as the first CASC exam - 12 link stations only. Single 7 minute stations are more beneficial to the local candidates, IMO.

For Medicine which is more advanced than psychiatry, PACES is only done in one session. Might be better to do CASC in one session if Don Valley Stadium is to be demolished.

2) Helpful feedbacks. Just tick box feedbacks are not helping and misleading people.

3) Video recording. With millions of pounds surplus, why can't they incorporate this esp if they're going to do CASC exams in London headquarters. That way, some examiners might not be able to fail you because of your look, color, accent or some other radiculous ideas (e.g. I put my jumper on (under the coat) in the afternoon session because I felt a bit cold and may be I failed in more stations because of that. Who knows?). OR if they can't do it. Have 2 examiners for each station so that one can't do whatever he or she likes. There are 2 examiners for PACES and same for old part 2 exam. Why can't they do it especially if they can change the exam format to one section 12 link station CASC like first exam?

4) New candidate numbers. Examiners are not stupid. They will know whether you're an old candidate by having a look at your candidate number. That might have "bad" first impression and "Halo effect". May be they better issue a new candidate number each time.

I would like to say "Enough is enough".

May be we should take the point 3) further with MPs or Organizations e.g. BMA, BAPIO to ensure the quality of the exam like PACES. If PACES can do with 2 examiners, why not CASC?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Fully endorsed.

I fully agree.

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Any one who will volunteer to write a letter using the above points. I am not good with writing. I am happy to pay the cost for the UK native writer to proof read and rewrite the letter as needed and it may cost me around £50 to £100.

I appreciate if there is any volunteer.

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I found the following interesting fact for the USMLE OSCE

  • There is no examiner in the room. The encounter is video monitored and taped. Thus, there will be no questions asked in the room. However, during physical examination, you are still required to explain to or take permission from the patient before you start each physical contact with the patient.

Read more at the following link.

http://www.oscehome....2-CS_OSCEs.html

Interesting. May be RCPsych better follow how USMLE is done.

In my opinion, UK colleges follow the trends of how United States Universites have been doing the same as UK government follows whatever US decides to do e.g. international military actions. UK is mainly a follower of the United States, IMO.

e.g. Mini-CEX or Mini-ACE has been in the US since 1990s or earlier. Workplace based assessment is not a new thing but it's just a direct copy of what United States have been doing over the years. Have a look at the following links.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7574198 (1995)

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16180056 (1997)

RCPsych better follows how USMLE OSCE clinical exams have been done asap for CASC instead of waiting for years to act on this. In my opinion, CASC require video recording more than USMLE OSCE clinical exams due to the nature of stations. If RCPsych is out of dept to incorporate video recording, they may be able to liasie with USMLE to get advice on how it's done.

Edited by ryukenden
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I just read an article in a GP magazine that the Royal College for GPs has backed down and requested Bapio not to go for a judicial review as they will give more chances for the IMGs to pass the GP exam and also look at the result to modify the Exam.

I too feel that this problem will continue unless we go for a judicial review or go to the High Court to get a stay order until the College agrees to make a video recording of the Exam.

Now that the Government and GMC is aware of the problem,I feel it is now or never to take the problem to the Prime Minister and Health Minister and also the GMC.

The GMC has also made it known that it will investigate the recent GP Exam as Lawyers from BAPIO were just about to file a judicial review.

I feel we should all write to the GMC now which is reportedly close to investigating the Mrcpsych Exam due to the large number of complaints it receives about this exam.

The letter to the GMC should be done individually to have more effect and hopefully it will finally lead them to investigate the most recent result just as happened in the case of the GP exam.

Maybe we will have to try to go to Court first to get the attention of the GMC?

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Hadrian, this is good news !!

May be now is the time we should unite & act.

Question is, who can bell the cat?

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I can bell the Cat as I fear nobody and can deal with the subsequent repercussions and fallout.

I feel we should also inform the GMC that we are convinced that the Examiners themselves do not have the skills or the competence to pass the CASC exam for which they have been appointed Examiners and that they qualified by passing the old pattern exam in which they were given one hour unobserved with the Patient and that their communication skills remain unchecked.

It may be better to pay the £150 Fee for an appeal of the Exam result and to consider it a donation to a charitable cause but also send a copy of the letter to the GMC and the Dean as the GMC now has responsibility for all exams for the last two years.

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I think the best thing we can do is to go to the court,those people will never respect us and they will never listen the only thing that can make them to have shakes is court order.

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guys i am so happy to read what I am seeing and I feel that we all need to be courageous and make our feelings known about this vast injustice.I have passed 11 stations after many attempts and attended the exam on wed where I was faced with 3 new stations which had not ever appeared in previous exams about which i was convinced that i had failed. Paradoxically I passed all of these 3 new stations despite having any clear approach yet I ended up failing basic stations that I had prepared for and practiced ad infinitum namely body dysmorphic disorder and cognitive examination.I also attended a reputable mock exam in the same venue as the casc exam where I passed 15/16 stations . In conclusion I believe that we as a group should stand up for our rights and refuse to be subjected to this humiliation and I would thoroughly support anyone with similiar views

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I am happy to join you guys to appeal against this unfairness.

Please advise shall we all appeal to RCPSych first and then copy to GMC. We don't have much time if we have to appeal to RCPsych. Please advise asap so that we have to do things together.

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Dear All,

I was looking at appeal process and it does not look like that we have grounds to appeal as per RCPsych appeal requirements. We are actually appealing against exam process that is challenging the RCPSych proceeding.

I am attaching the grounds for appeal herewith. Please advise.

What ever we do we should do together to have an impact otherwise it will all go in vain. I think after all we all have one life and why to bow against such unfairness. I can't die peacefully. While dying, I will always think that I did not fight against injustice and what I am going to teach my children. Allowing injustice to happen is like being with perpretators of the crime.

It just a thorne in my heart which is bleeding all the time.

1. GROUNDS FOR APPEAL

An appeal will only be permitted to proceed provided the Candidate has complied with all applicable procedures as set out in the prevailing Eligibility Criteria and Regulations for MRCPsych Examination. One or more of the following shall constitute grounds for an appeal under the appeal procedure:-

1.1. An examination result is manifestly incorrect, for example, being due to an administrative error.

1.2. There is evidence of administrative irregularity or procedural failure and there are reasonable grounds to believe that, were it not for that irregularity or failure, the examination result would have been different.

1.3. There were circumstances affecting the Candidate which were not known to the Examinations Sub-Committee at the time it determined the examination result and, had those circumstances been known to the Examinations Sub-Committee, it is likely that the examination result would have been different.

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Dear All,

I was looking at appeal process and it does not look like that we have grounds to appeal as per RCPsych appeal requirements. We are actually appealing against exam process that is challenging the RCPSych proceeding.

I am attaching the grounds for appeal herewith. Please advise.

What ever we do we should do together to have an impact otherwise it will all go in vain. I think after all we all have one life and why to bow against such unfairness. I can't die peacefully. While dying, I will always think that I did not fight against injustice and what I am going to teach my children. Allowing injustice to happen is like being with perpretators of the crime.

It just a thorne in my heart which is bleeding all the time.

1. GROUNDS FOR APPEAL

An appeal will only be permitted to proceed provided the Candidate has complied with all applicable procedures as set out in the prevailing Eligibility Criteria and Regulations for MRCPsych Examination. One or more of the following shall constitute grounds for an appeal under the appeal procedure:-

1.1. An examination result is manifestly incorrect, for example, being due to an administrative error.

1.2. There is evidence of administrative irregularity or procedural failure and there are reasonable grounds to believe that, were it not for that irregularity or failure, the examination result would have been different.

1.3. There were circumstances affecting the Candidate which were not known to the Examinations Sub-Committee at the time it determined the examination result and, had those circumstances been known to the Examinations Sub-Committee, it is likely that the examination result would have been different.

We're not talking about appealing by one candidate instead we're discussing to take it to the organizations like GMC, Bapio.

Are there any one who is good with writing such letter? As I said, I would then pay for the native writer to proof read and rewrite the letter accordingly.

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I just read an article in a GP magazine that the Royal College for GPs has backed down and requested Bapio not to go for a judicial review as they will give more chances for the IMGs to pass the GP exam and also look at the result to modify the Exam.

I too feel that this problem will continue unless we go for a judicial review or go to the High Court to get a stay order until the College agrees to make a video recording of the Exam.

Now that the Government and GMC is aware of the problem,I feel it is now or never to take the problem to the Prime Minister and Health Minister and also the GMC.

The GMC has also made it known that it will investigate the recent GP Exam as Lawyers from BAPIO were just about to file a judicial review.

I feel we should all write to the GMC now which is reportedly close to investigating the Mrcpsych Exam due to the large number of complaints it receives about this exam.

The letter to the GMC should be done individually to have more effect and hopefully it will finally lead them to investigate the most recent result just as happened in the case of the GP exam.

Maybe we will have to try to go to Court first to get the attention of the GMC?

Are you a member of Bapio? Is there a member of Bapio who is willing to help regarding this issue?

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I strongly think that the system is bias in CASC. The pass mark for theory ranges from 45-64% but for CASC is 75% (12/16). The college has raised the bar of communication skills so high that it becomes virtually impossible for IMG's to pass. Then there is no way we can find out why we have failed. Thr feedback form is poorly designed. It hardly gives you any idea of where things went wrong. Then there is only one examiner unlike PACES where are two. The session should be video recorded so that candidates can ask for review. College stance is malicious. The IMG's who when enter the training are at par with UK graduates and they do well even at the WPBA. IMG's do well in theory papers but what goes wrong that UK graduates have 86-92% pass rate in CASC & IMG's have 33-36% pass rate. Many doctors have been on antidepressants as they are unable to cope with the pressure. Lot of people are considering of taking help from BAPIO which I think is will be a right move. Our demand will be to have objective analysis of the result by at least 2 psychiatrists, bring down cut off of CASC stations to 10/16, video recording of the stations, we should be allowed to give any exam including CASC in any order. I think we should contact BAPIO quickly so that RCPsych can make amendments for Sept 2013. We need to contribute money as well. I know for GP petition doctors have contributed £33, 000. We also need to discuss with BAPIO about the legal cost. Please don't sit quitely.

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Here is about "JUSTICE FOR GP TRAINEES VIA BAPIO"

http://www.bapio.co.uk/justice-for-gp-trainees

It said

RCGP figures for 2010-11indicate that the failure rate for IMGs taking the CSA component of the MRCGP is at 63.2%, compared with 9.4% of UK graduates.

May be similar failure rates apply to MRCPsych. Failure rate for Oversea people is higher than 70% compared to 5 to 10% of UK graduates.

We also need "JUSTICE FOR MRCPSYCH TRAINEES"

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I have been informed that some doctors have already contacted BAPIO. We have to let the college know that we are not against the exam but the standards of CASC exam are arbitary and they need to change.

you all can add suggestions. Few of them are:

1. The cut off for pass should come down to 10/16 (62-3%).

2. They need to be accountable (just shading the area of concern doesn't help).

3. VIDEO recording should be done.

4. 2 examiners to assess the performance in each station.

5. If someone demands review of their performance then college should not charge more than £50/-

I think contact GMC as well. Please be fast.

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In reply to your question ryukenden, I can state that I am not a member of Bapio but we can all look at becoming members so that we can bring up the issue of the CASC Exam.

We can still appeal as there are grounds I feel that exist that make it unfair,however do not expect the appeal to succeed.

Somebody senior in the Rcpsych has said that the CASC Exam will be easy to pass in only the first and second attempt.

This may be because after the Exam they use statistical techniques to change the result so that the more younger you are and the more inexperienced you are ,the more likely you are to pass the CASC Exam, namely local candidates rather than IMGs.

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I feel that there are ground for appeal under Administrative irregularity and procedural failure.

The Exam is held over four days instead of on a single day at four centres. It gets more difficult to pass as it progresses and Friday afternoon is the most difficult to pass.

There is no video recording of the CASC Exam.

The Examiners are given numbers and do not write their names on the feedback sheet.

The Candidates have to show the Examiner their name and original exam number which helps to differentiate between those who are repeating the Exam.

This system is in place to protect the Examiners and to encourage them to discriminate on the grounds of race,religion,caste and age.

If the above is not true then why is it that the supposedly superior British graduate can not pass the same CASC Exam when it is held in Hong Kong with a lot of Chinese Examiners.

Only the Chinese graduates appear to do well in the Hong Kong CASC.

This is the reason why it is felt that the Exam is more like a posh golf club membership interview rather than an Exam.

The Examiners do not have to demonstrate their competence and skills before being appointed as Examiners for the CASC exam.

J

There is a three week delay after the CASC Exam giving them ample time to use statistical techniques to change the pass list to favour local graduates.

The appeals procedure and grounds for appeal make sure that the appeal will fail.

I feel that the GMC should be alerted to these problems so that they can look in to it.

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