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GENDER BIAS

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Hey Guys..

It is interesting to note that women have no known hardships in passing membership exams if they attempt it.. My lady colleagues with membership have told me that most of the examiners were either asking 'leading' questions or giving essential 'clues'...Historically, if you look back at the stats in the context as to the number of lady trainees taking the exam and the pass percentage, itz far far better than male trainees and it leaves me with thoughts as to whether there is a possible gender bias in the system...

Do the examiners always have a lesser threshold to pass lady candidates? I am wondering as to whether this practice is something thatz 'universal' as it happens quite a lot in the sub-continent, especially in the final MB exams..

What are your views?  (by the way, im not a misogynist..)  :o

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such an interesting subject...but still such a difficult one to study, investigate or even comment on without being hit by polical correctness....

I am curious where it will lead, especially now that we are all calming down due to Xmas and holidays...

;)

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yes.. this is an interesting subject indeed..

iam waiting for the views of our cafe members...

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Could a possible reason be that they might actually be really good candidates, worked hard and are challenging the old-boy elite that we have in this country???

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they also have better communication skills - something which is reported to be important for passing the clinicals. when i started i was told by my SR at the time that as a uk graduate my chances of obtaining membership were 70% whereas a non-uk graduates chances were 40%. i've no idea if that is/was true.

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j, i take your point to a certain extent about communication skills..(coz if you look right from the developmental perspective, women have always outweighed men and even after full development, they are more 'talkative' anywayzz..)

On the other hand, im a bit inclined to think that male candidates always do better when they are put on the spot and when the 'situation' demands...(as in the exam scenarios). how well do you think women could be handling such stressful situations? (i am not being sceptical here)..

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This is very interesting indeed!!!!! but i strongly object the view that lady candidates are favoured more than male candidates, i feel that passing exam depends on other

'healthy' variables which puts the person in the right light during the exam.

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This is very interesting indeed!!!!! but i strongly object the view that lady candidates are favoured more than male candidates, i feel that passing exam depends on other

'healthy' variables which puts the person in the right light during the exam.

That sounds right,coming from a female colleague ;) Just joking....

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well it can go against u as well esp if one examiner is male n the other female...due to green eyed jealousy!!

the female examiner may suddenly feel threatened by a younger prettier intelligent candidate...!!

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I dont think so because when 'lady' psychiatrists come up to the level of being examiners for part 2, one could reasonably expect that they would be 'level-headed' and unbiased after all the years of havin treated many difficult patients.. If not 'level-headed', atleast they would be reasonable, i guess..

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Oh for the love of God. I'm pretty sure that if you come across as a good knowledgeable friendly polite candidate who demonstrates an adequate level of knowledge about the particular case or PMPs given, then you will be passed. I don't think that examiners will be terribly interested in what you look like or whether you wear trousers or a skirt. They are more concerned with whether you would make a good SpR, so that if you were working for them, they could go on holiday for a week and not worry to much about the clinical decisions you make in their absence. I fear this thread may say more about people's own perceptions and attitudes than those of the examiners. If there are disparities between the percentages of male and female passing, then it will be to do with the fact that women are more likely to study for longer and be inherently better at communication and empathy. Clearly women have better communication skills, and given thta that is what makes you a good doctor, especially a psychiatrist, it is no wonder that women deservedly do well in the exams which test these qualities. At the end of the day until you become an examiner, then you'll not know.

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Oh for the love of God. I'm pretty sure that if you come across as a good knowledgeable friendly polite candidate who demonstrates an adequate level of knowledge about the particular case or PMPs given, then you will be passed. I don't think that examiners will be terribly interested in what you look like or whether you wear trousers or a skirt. They are more concerned with whether you would make a good SpR, so that if you were working for them, they could go on holiday for a week and not worry to much about the clinical decisions you make in their absence. I fear this thread may say more about people's own perceptions and attitudes than those of the examiners. If there are disparities between the percentages of male and female passing, then it will be to do with the fact that women are more likely to study for longer and be inherently better at communication and empathy. Clearly women have better communication skills, and given thta that is what makes you a good doctor, especially a psychiatrist, it is no wonder that women deservedly do well in the exams which test these qualities. At the end of the day until you become an examiner, then you'll not know.

Chris, I beg to differ...I agree women can be hard grafters but (and I am not being sexist here) I am convinced men make better psychiatrists in most sub specialities (with the exception of CAMHS maybe)

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They are more concerned with whether you would make a good SpR, so that if you were working for them, they could go on holiday for a week and not worry to much about the clinical decisions you make in their absence.

Consultants go on holidays leaving their inexperienced 1st year SHO's to take care of clinical decisions! ;)

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Chris, I beg to differ...I agree women can be hard grafters but (and I am not being sexist here) I am convinced men make better psychiatrists in most sub specialities (with the exception of CAMHS maybe)

What are you basing that on?

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I dont think so because when 'lady' psychiatrists come up to the level of being examiners for part 2, one could reasonably expect that they would be 'level-headed' and unbiased after all the years of havin treated many difficult patients.. If not 'level-headed', atleast they would be reasonable, i guess..

In my first SHO post, I worked for a female consultant who told me that one should not use one's looks to get ahead at work and therefore I should not wear lipstick to work. She told me she made a point of never wearing lipstick, even while at medical school, unless she got the top mark in her class. Then she would wear it.

She also made a comment about the inappropriateness of short skirts at work (not sure who that was directed as as I have NEVER worn anything that is remotely above the knee at work) and told me that 'a woman reaches an age when she should cut her hair' (guess which one of us has long hair?).

She would also allow her ward round to go on until 7pm but would send the SpR (male) home at 5pm and make me stay on. After I left, there was a male SHO and female SpR. The female SpR was made to stay until the end of the ward round and the male SHO was allowed to leave at 5pm.

As for kris_77's 'unsexist' comment about men making better psychiatrists in all specialities (except for C&A), on what is that based? Isn't it about the person and their abilities rather than sex? If not, I'd love to know which sub-specialities (if any) you think women are more suited to. Would they be something along the lines of being pregnant, cooking and housework?

IN that case, can I get a CCT in domestic science?

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projectmayhem, it looks like your first consultant wasnt 'level headed' and you were thrusted upon with her own ideologies..

wearing lipstick, skirt etc is something personal and different people have different opinions and it was entirely wrong on your consultant to have expected that you adhere to her likes & dislikes... strange.... isnt it?

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har har...she also told me I should try to marry a research psychiatrist like she did.

I think she really wanted a protege or a 'mini-me.'

Was really worried about ever working for a female consultant again. I do now, and she's great. None of that cr*p.

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Chris, I beg to differ...I agree women can be hard grafters but (and I am not being sexist here) I am convinced men make better psychiatrists in most sub specialities (with the exception of CAMHS maybe)

What are you basing that on?

My views are based on my experience of working with female consultants, which has been(regrettably) very negative.

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In my first SHO post, I worked for a female consultant who told me that one should not use one's looks to get ahead at work and therefore I should not wear lipstick to work. She told me she made a point of never wearing lipstick, even while at medical school, unless she got the top mark in her class. Then she would wear it.

She also made a comment about the inappropriateness of short skirts at work (not sure who that was directed as as I have NEVER worn anything that is remotely above the knee at work) and told me that 'a woman reaches an age when she should cut her hair' (guess which one of us has long hair?).

The thing is women have for so long  under a patriarchal culture not being properly recognized for their intellectual capabilities. I would suspect projectmayhem your consultant is caught in a time warp. She probably had to fight to  become a consultant when women had to almost practically choose between careers and staying at home cooking dinner and looking after the kids. The stereotype of the empty headed bimbo from historical accounts (way b/4 my time) was very hard to shift. I would like to think that sexuality is not an outright issue when it comes to jobs or exams but hey what about the guys dosen't the tall good-looking one who has gone to public school always get the job?

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I agree with folder and project mayhem, and not just because I'm a woman! I've worked for a number of female consultants - some older and more traditional and some younger. None of them were like the consultant that project mayhem described. They have always been quite supportive and still retained their femininity and did not have this chip on their shoulder about having to work harder than their male counterparts. Times are changing and just as the old boy brigade could soon be a dying breed, well so are the 'old plain jane married to their job' female consultants.

As for Kris_77's comments, well, I find them a bit offensive. Perhaps his opinion of female consultants was tarnished by his experience of working with them, or was that because he already had the attitude that female consultants were inferior? I work in a medium secure unit where a good third of the forensic consultants are female - and do a bloody good job. Females better at CAMHS? Please, don't make me laugh. 8-)

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Miss Kitty I agree with you totally and as for Kris_77 I can't believe you could say something so utterly sexist and then say you're basing it on 'experience.' That's like consultants who say all my SHOs have been lazy therefore all SHOs are lazy.

The reason I mentioned my first SHO consultant is to remind everyone that gender bias can work both ways and you don't always know which way people are going to be biased.

Although, we all know which way Kris_77 is biased. ;)

Ughh...I must lie down and digest. Totally overdid it today. Totally. :P

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