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fate of SHO psychiatry trainees

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could anybody shed some light on the fate of SHOs currently in various stages of training programmes, and how would they be adjusted/incorporated/colluded into the schemes when the foundation years come in???(which happens probably in autumn 2007)

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if you are already not in a foundation programme, you will go through the MRCpsych exams and the regular CCT article 14. you won't have the privilege of joining the job and coming out as a junior consutant. otherwise you are already safe because of your rotation.

people who are yet to get a rotation in psychiatry or any other field before the PMETB takes full command will then be in a spot of bother because the situation is likely that there will be no more rotations after august 2006 and all programmes will just be foundation courses so then those guys will either have to take up non training posts or middle grades and may never get a shot at the RCPsych exams

i may be entirely wrong with this but from the dean's letter and from some consultants, this is what i can gather.

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on a lighter vein,amused by the id name of the original poster.

pSYSHO-Psy SHO....

not long before it becomes PSYCO N!!!of course via PSYSPR...

or maybe PMETB may decide otherwise and give something else to put in front of pSY.....

:D

cheers

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What happens to staff grades with their MRCPsych? If you are not on an SpR rotation or an SHO on rotation in Aug 2006 what happens then?

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anthonyc,

staff grades who have passed MRCPsych still have time to get to their SPr training. the time will come to crunch in 2008/ 2009 when the last batch of MRCPsych exams or the proposed last set might happen then there will be no one coming out of the traditional exam and no mre traditional Spr interviews.

SPr interviews will come to an end like how SHO training interviews are slowly coming to and end now. then it will just be PMETB- hopefully. my personal opinion is that this PMETB shoudl have been running side by side for few more years to detect flaws befor ehty implemented it but hey- the think tanks should have had a decision based on facts and they are usually right. God help the NHS if they are wrong and there is a shortage by 2015, they will have to scurry up and may be sign up nurses as consultant till they come up with an ingenious plan! sorry if that was offensive but thats my opinion with the way things are happening here right now!

that also means they would shut down consultant interviews in teh future- traditional ones. they would have the PMETB interviews i think but until that happens it shall be a good mystery! but for anyone who was hoping to atke time off and travel or do something nice, i think they are all fixed to the wall now!! :'(

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thanks a lot for the input/light.

does it also mean that the future trainees in psychiatry i.e. those coming thru Foundation schemes will be spared of the scourge of the Royal college exams. (unlike we unfortunate lot.....PSYSHO).

also, what would become of those who have passed Part 1 but not been so lucky with Part 2, and remain similarly (and i would say precariously) placed by 2007-2008?

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Psysho,

Have the look at the RCPsych website--the Dean's Jan 06 newsletter addresses many of the very issues you have doubts with.

Paranth is absolutely right: people wanting to take time off for whatever reason will find themselves in a bit of a fix! :-/

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My Response to this calamity and poor planning takes me down memory lane ( I HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN BEFORE)............

Many are going to find themselves in a (REAL FIX) and the following categories will not be spared unless we start speaking out loud and clear.........

This ' On your own' attitude that the PMETB and Royal college and NHS is adopting is very sad.

1. SHO trainees dont have a clear idea of what their fate is e.g....

I am currently SHO year 4 ( ST 4 level (Specialist training year 4 as proposed by MMC.....Modernising medical careers )....

I desperately have to pass part 2 exams this spring because if I dont i will be kicked off my rotation anyway.........Now, if i take up a staff grade Job..what happens when i pass part 2 and want to come back as an SPR ?

2.The idea of abolishing MRCPsych will not come into full force it will just be optional and I think we will not escape exit exams at this rate.......I AM TIRED OF EXAMS...

Exit exams on the MMC and PMETB agenda will become a reality.

Staff grades with MRCPsych are adviced to look for any Spr Jobs now asit is going to be particularly hard to break the ranks at any level when the ' nightmare starts.

What are the ranks ?

F1 ( FOUNDATION YEAR 1/HOUSE OFFICER)

F2 (fOUNDATION YEAR 2 /GLORIFIED HOUSEOFFICER/TROUBLE SPOT FOR OVERSEAS DOCTORS AS THEY WILL HAVE TO DO F2 WETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT ....ANOTHER NIGHTMARE)

ST ......1,2,3,4,5,6 ........SPECALIST TRAINING YEAR 0NE TO SIX LIKE AMERICAN PGY 1 TO X WHERE X IS BETWEEN 1 AND 10 )

The run through concept is good but how do they mop the mess that they have created from.......trust grade jobs,6 month jobs,exams, too many applicants on ground, few vacancies, staff grades as service providers, very few traning numbers.........??????

I CAN GO ON FOREVER ON THIS ISSUES AS I FORSEE MANY PROBLEMSn( an absolute nightmare for many)..........

Junior consultant and senior consultant...........where in the world is this done.????...........we all know that when you become a consultant...you respect those before you and you gain exparience in years and service.......to discriminate becos of the needs in the system and a desire to make more consultants quickly is bringing......competency into question and a system that has never been tested anywhere in the world.

having said this little........i want to end by saying............We are living in a pool of career uncertainties .........

If you have not got an SPR post yet........

(SHos,Pre-Part 1, Post part 1, Pre part 2, staff grades and we must not forget...........THE LOCUMS DOCTORS WHO THEY ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO FACE OUT.) then this Dilema is ours to discuss at all levels............

My plans for taking one year out after part 2 has been thrown out of the Window.

CONTINUE THE THOUGHTS AND DISCUSSIONS...........ALL THE BEST TO YOU ALL.....CHEERS

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..........to add to what kola says

overseas docs cant take up F1 if they have PRHO/F1 equivalent from their home countries (which i think is compulsory in those countries before they are awarded their long desired n cherised medical degrees)

and when in Uk, they cant take up F2 if they cant get a deanery to approve the F1 training.

thats not the end, 'cas now no one can get a Permit Free unless they have a job contract of greater than 3 months duration.

well thats the plight.........

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........n our situation,

shall we now start scrambling and amassing all and any possible documentation to 'support our claims' that we have been working diligently, sincerely and in accordance with the royal college guidelines re: SHO training, and brace ourselves to be evaluated for equivalence against the glorified ones in a year and half's time????

can someone suggest what do we need to put together to be able to put up?

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Its all well and good to have a structure in place for the specialist training as out-lined in the Dean's Newsletter. However what has yet to be determined in a lot of cases is how many places each NHS trust will be able to fund. As I understand it this may well mean fewer training places in total. In which case even if folk are in a rotation, they may find themselves having to reinterview for a post in their trust, in competition with the SpRs. Not a good prospect for existing SHOs, surely.

Another worrying problem with this new system is the restriction of choice within the training:

  • People will be forced to apply for a specialty post after only a year or so as a doctor.
  • They will also not be able (as I did) to do a couple of medical SHO posts for experience before coming into Psychiatry.
  • They are discontinuing Dual-Training.
  • People also be pressured to specialise in a particular area to meet local consultant needs.
  • There is less clarity about part time trainees and how their training would fit in.
  • It may become more difficult for women to take time out to have children during their training.

It's very easy for the people deciding these schemes (who all have their CCST and secure consultant posts) to lay down simple plans: FY1, FY2, then ST1-6, then consultant. However this completely misses the impact it will have on new and existing trainees who may have to find new jobs, move house, and settle for a speciality they would not otherwise have chosen.

And they say change is a good thing...

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the following is what i understand of the changes and so is not guaranteed to be correct-

there will be 2 foundation years before specialist training. the first year of specialist training may be to gain general competencies and so be transferrable. there will only be two ccts - adult and child so there won't be a need for dual training. you do your adult cct and will then be eligible for gen adult (or the various subspecialities of that) or old age. transitional arrangements are not clear, but a year 2 sho would not be competing with existing sprs cos a year 2 sho would be going for a year 2 specialist training post and an spr would be going for a later year post. i don't think it will be possible for them to force people to become consultants in particular specialities in the training stage because there won't be subspeciality ccts and so there will be no subspeciality training schemes.

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I think they've done away with the idea of only having 2 cct's. I think now they are looking at about 6. Check the dean's newsletter, I'm pretty sure they're there. Or somewhere on the college website. I'll find it and post a link...

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Personally I am quite disillusioned with the British Training system especially in Psychiatry.Exams are so tough ,and expensive as well....and If we fail the OSCE,we need to take the theory again ... and then we go to part two which is another battle altogether.The exams are so silly and tricky ,not like the straight forward American programmes that test the concept and not mere facts...And on top of that after exams ,SPR posts are not easy to get..and then we go on to become a consultant.Phew...I think training should be fun.And if you are an overseas graduate..then there is a constant worry of visa..job..and what not.

God save us all!!

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I entirely agree with you. But there is also the staff grade route. No exams. Not much responsibility. Permanent job. No oncalls in some posts. Then you can enjoy life! :D

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