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sixthsensor

Problems ahead.....permit free training

119 posts in this topic

Hi Guys,

You need to be aware of the new DOH news regarding all Overseas doctors requiring work permits even for training jobs as of July 2006. This has huge implications for Doctors on Permit free training Visas, which expires in the next six months.

Click here for the actual news....

http://www.dh.gov.uk/PublicationsAndStatistics/PressReleases/PressReleasesNotices/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4131255&chk=TadpQg

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I am not sure what happens to people on HSMP. Will they be able to get an extension after 1 year, or do they have to go for a work permit as well! Thanks for the news sixthsensor. I can understand the implications for those whose visas r going to expire soon.

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any info about what happens to HSMP holders?

Especially for people like me who have just got for the first year

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I would imagine IMGs with HSMP will be able to work without a work permit as HSMP is equivalent to a work permit but more flexibe! But it all depends on the DoH policy...

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it dosen't look good at all.i think present hsmp holders should be ok,but i guess they will also make drastic changes in HSMP soon for new applicants.things are changing so fast.the worrying part is that doh mentioned that consultant need is decreasing.i guess they are going to use this excuse of junior doctors without work on two issues.one to close the door on img's fully and also cut costs on funding posts including consultant posts.the best thing for trainees who are 6 months or even a year or so from finishing their rotation is to get into a training staff grade post as quickly as possible.do not depend on HSMP as the rules may change.the whole scenario is changing.its important to see the trend and act.

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so does this mean that spr posts will also be for uk and eu graduates first then only img's on work permits after july 2006?

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so does this mean that spr posts will also be for uk and eu graduates first then only img's on work permits after july 2006?

YA THATS RIGHT

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Yes it looks like IMG's will be considered last for Spr posts, according to the ruling. Sounds a bit unfair but well they make the rules

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it seems that this will also eventually affect consultant posts.i.e consultant posts to be filled with uk and eu qualified higher trainees,then only the others.i think the doh release hints at this when it is mentioned that the uk will always need a SMALL number of specialists and the need for consultants is decreasing.this is going to have quite a knock on effect at all levels.

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HI everyone :-/

Can anybody say whats going to happen for the 1st yr SHO's who have to get a PFT extention by this Aug (who are in a 3 yr rotation). At the same time will they allow you to hold a training post as a SHO with a HSMP after this Jul????

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elakiri i suggest u go on to hsmp asap

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then whats the use of taking the membership exams when ultimately u will end up as (if at all) a staff grade?

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Well it seems that there is a trend in the UK that opportunities for foreign doctors and to some extent local trained ones as well that spaces and availability for certain positions wax and wane. It is quite difficult to make accurate predictions. My view is this will continue as the publically run NHS is a highly charged political hot potato which may account invariably for this. I know this is of little comfort to doctors that are caught up in this never ending merrygoround.

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i think the Govt is playing to the gallery!!!....tryin their best to project that they care abt their local grads (esp after the uproar when local grads were left without their desired posts!!!).....

the irony is that ...on one hand the govt seems hell bent on protecting the interests of the local grads.....whereas on the other hand they pay ridiculous amt of money to locum consultants from the same countries where the bulk of the IMGs come from.....

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“In future International Medical Graduates who wish to work or train in the NHS will need a work permit. To obtain a work permit an employer must show that a genuine vacancy exists, which cannot be filled with a resident worker.”

I always thought that filling up the equal opportunities form was a bit of a joke. But after this statement on the DoH website, I think the equal opportunities form should be done away with

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i spoke with one of my consultants who has political contacts and is a trend watcher.she said that there is a lot of pressure at both local and central govt by MPs to protect doctors who have passed out of uk medical schools.it seems that jobs from most junior to consultant posts will be given to uk medical graduates.she agreed that this was not fair but said this is a cycle and when she was in higher training alot of trainees in and after training were left high and dry and had to go on to do other things.the concept of middle grade is only a recent thing which was not there before.she feels middle grade is a good option for doctors to stay in their field of training and not waste the years in training.she feels that the middle grade will also be closed soon.she agrees that it is all poltical pressure and actions will tend to be drastic.she said that what worries her is that people may get caught midway in training or even worse come out of spr and be overqualified for the decreasing middle grade posts and not getting a consultant post.she feels that regulations will also apply for consultant posts in which uk graduates will get first place.she said that rational the doh and govt takes with img's is that they have received uk training which will be useful back home and this was the idea of pft.i guess there is only one alternative for those pre spr ,and that is to get into middle grade.those in higher training may just make it.those who have just started training will be the most affected.it is going to be a rapidly changing scenario.

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My response is  don't panic! I have seen and heard these cycles come and go so many times. Has anyone ever wondered why a lot of inner city GPs are midlle aged to eldrely asian gentlemen? Apparently in the 60s the situation with doctors in the NHS was so bad that local people were leaving the medical profession or emigrating. Doctors arriving from the indian subcontinent strolled in to GP positions wihout PLAB or local UK postgraduate training! Can anyone imagine that now.

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Its interesting that major changes are planned giving less than 4 months notice ( it afterall does not affect the british or EEU members). I wonder if such a short notice affecting the locals would even be dared to be put forward.

Anyway we always knew that they twist the rules according to their liking, when they were short, they attracted people and now are bent on kicking overseas doctors out, as the NHS is getting rapidly filled.

Made a sad reading about the plight of some Indian doctors in hindustan times today.

God give the sense to aspiring overseas doctors.

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i agree it is so heartless and mercenary to make a major policy change within a few months.a period of at least a year or two should be given,and those already on training programmes should be allowed to complete their rotation on present visas.i guess this is politics and protectionism crreeping in.

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Guys, I suggest whoevver can qualify for the HSMP,just get on it...and do it..We dont know what is lurking round the corner in the new rules.I heard things will get pretty tough for IMGS.But donw worry...im sure there will be some way out !!

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a bit more info from the consultant with political contacts.by political contacts i mean she is married to a local conservative stalwart who will be running for office in the next elections.when the crisis with local graduates emerged no one really bothered till a number of graduates from connected families became affected.the parents lobbied their MP's and some of these parents have very strong lobbying friends.the top people in DOH,Home Office and GMC were involved and told that this is unacceptable.the drastic moves now with such a short span shows immense political pressure at work.the task is to protect all level of future jobs for locals and include eu doctors.IMG's are a soft target who have nill lobbying power.the recent moves is to clear new posts and to block all future posts after july 2006 for locals.this protectionism will be at all levels.i'm sure the powerful lobbying parents would like to see their children become consultants also.this is the reason that the doh release also spoke about decreasing need for consultants.anyway i guess any country will do the same for example canada where it is much worse.once again i think the prudent and pragmatic thing would be for those who can should be to move into some form of permanent post.

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Hi there. Before I start something that might sound very controversial let me add that I am an IMG. What I did want to say was this that I think to want to protect the interests of their own medical graduates is something any country would do. Why is it that we are presuming that when we come to the UK as IMGs we should be given any preferential treatment.

Like any government the UK govt did not plan too well when they increased recruitment and numbers of medical graduates. There are far too many agencies involved in undergraduate and post graduate training here ... deaneries, individual trusts we work in, royal colleges, PMETB, Home Office etc etc... they do not coordinate and well then as expected there are huge problems.

I am sympathetic to the fact that as an IMG I too will be threatened by all of this... I am currently an Academic SpR on a 5 year contract and have 2.5 years left on HSMP to get Indefinite Leave to Remain... however that too may not be enough.

If its any reassurance though I think that the increased number of medical graduates will impact on IMGs coming to UK now or current 1st year SHOs... again the situation may not be as bad in Psychiatry as in Medicine or Surgery.

However before we just think of all this as NOT ON... we must think and look at it from the perspective of the UK medical graduates and the other agencies trying to protect their interests.

I hope I have not ruffled too many feathers... and apologies in adavnce if I have!

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Aditya,

what you said was spot on. any country would want to give more oppertunities to its own candidates first. nobody disagrees with that.what everyone is gruntling on about is the fact that there was a huge opening for IMGs by the PLAB exams and after people have done it, when the requirment for jobs has gone down, they are finding ways to get rid of people.

people at senior levels are not immune either is what is worrying. anyway, there is always a solution, lets all wait and hope something comes out.

our chair of adult psychiatry was also talking about the tier in the consultant system when he said that he's afraid it may be slightly partial- that senior consultant posts may not be readily available for IMGs. well looks like rough times are ahead.

is there any point in having equal oppertunities monitoring forms any more?? that issue i think is just a farce!

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aditya your point is valid and realistic,also paranths.the only thing preferable is for the changes to be done over a year or more with some consulting with those to be affected even though this will not be very productive.many would be in the country with mortgages,loans and children in schools.I feel the suddeness and short span to implementation is not kind .such drastic and sudden changes should be made with sufficient warning like the upcomming point system expected in 2007.at the end of the day i guess the govt voted by their citizens will always protect their own.

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Well firstly thanks for agreeing with me... I completely empathise and sympathise with all the issues paranth and aron quote in their posts.

I too would agree that more warning and a consultation would have been more appropriate rather than just snowballing every1 with this information.

As regards the GMC and PLAB tests... i think its appalling and a shame that despite the knowledge that there are virtually NO jobs around even for UK graduates that the GMC keeps increasing test centres and passing hordes of IMGs. Its a game to make money mates...

I feel they ought to have a responsibility really... but all they do is warn and put a tiny disclaimer on!

Fingers crossed and hope for the best...

All we do need is a clarification about what happens to those on valid PFTs or HSMP for say 2-3 years? Would they need to reapply or continue as of now... I would imagine that if my current LTR as an HSMP holder is till Dec 2008 then I should be applied to continue as on that but hey who knows????

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