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cyclothymic

news and a question for hsmp holders

44 posts in this topic

i have followed the rapid devlopments in the rules recently with i have to say a lot of anxiety.. i contacted home office and doh with quieries about the following 1) do hsmp holders have to change to work permit 2) does the new 5 year rule apply for hsmp holders as well and guess what my friends ,, :lol: no clear answer instead i was adviced to write to an email adress for furhter guidance ,, :P anyway i spoke to the head of our medical staffing department and she confidently said that i do not need to change to a work permit ,,not surprisng but one wonders about everything following the latest news

i dont think hsmp holders shoudl worry now and we all shoudl try and find out the answer to this question

a)5 years apply to us as well ?

b)what are the changes that coudl be introduced to the extesnion for the 5th year would be like ( baring in mind that they coudl make it excpetinally difficult to try and curb down on the apparently huge numbers who were granted the visa following the reduction in the points required).

c) how do we fit in hte new point system , i refer here to the propsed tier sytem ,, are we in tier 1 or 2

are in for a ride ,,work in hope for 4 years and then get our extesnions refused ( think about it ,, that 5th year woudl provide the perfect chaneling system for all the 'unwanted extras' to be kicked out.. or am i jsut being extra paranoid and the thruth is that the change is desinged for other professions.. doesnt seem so if u marry the doh of health decision regarding PFT which is alarmingly coordianted time wise with the homeoffice's decion

all u hsmp holders out there wiht hig hopes pls try and find out more about the above quieries and share ur thoughts :-/

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there was no response to my emaill so far ..the only benifit hsmp holders might have is amalgamating their staff grade orr trust grade workpermit years...

'Highly Skilled Migrant's will now be able to amalgamate continuous time spent in the UK as a work permit holder, Highly Skilled Migrant and / or an Innovator when applying for indefinite leave to remain as a Highly Skilled Migrant.'-home office 13 th march

see this link .

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/news/press_releases/changes_to_the_immigration.html if it works

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the Department of Health to end the existing immigration routes for postgraduate doctors and dentists, except for those people who have studied for their degrees in the UK. This reflects the flexibility of our managed migration systems to ensure we meet the needs of the UK labour market;

see this link

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/news/press_releases/a_points-based_system.html?

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I think drpraks its old news.

Yes its official for five years HSMP and might still change and i dont think we can contest it in court too.

They request the HSMP holders to contribute to the exchequer for five years and then dont know!!!!

Also did u read the Trust has to PROVE note PROVE (not show) that they couldnt find a home grown doctor for the post before appointing IMG.

Really not sure where it is leading to....

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Folks,

Atleast in Psychiatry unlike other specialities we have forum to discuss these thingslike the visa and Work permit stuff.I still guess its a political stunt but who knows

So please keep it going and keep in touch regarding these issues always plz!!!

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guyes ,, there are different anxities surrounding this issu ,, soem are worried about being able to work and others are worried about whether thier chances of applying to indefinate stay will be ruined after 5 years,, can someone actually look at those two differnt issues ,,

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correct me if i am wrong guys- if someone has a HSMP visa does not that bring him/her in par with EU and British graduates in as much as the employing trusts not having to obtain a work permit? My understanding is,or I may be completely wrong, the clause, for the trusts having to prove there are not enough home grown doctors only applies when trusts have to apply for a work permit, but if someone has HSMP, and is a eligible candidate, then the question does not arise unless of course they are completely doing away with equal opportunity policy which is obviously not clear yet.

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Dear freinds,

here is an email which i recieved today and i think it is highly important to share it with everyody and this platform is best.PLEASE READ IT AND RESPOND>FOR IF YOU THINK ABOUT YOURSELF ONLY IN NO TIME YOU WILL GET ENTRAPPED>THINK COLLECTIVELY AND BEHAVE COLLECTVELY AND WE ALL CAN BE SAFE>

Dear friends,

You might have heard about the new rules announced by the UK government regarding stopping of Permit Free Training and end of the Equal Opportunities Policy, to be implemented from July 2006. This has serious implications for International Medical Graduates ( IMG) in UK at all levels of training.

While there might be some justification in preventing further IMGs to come to UK in view of the severe job crunch, it is highly unfair to impose this rule upon those who are already here and are expecting to progress to higher posts( eg: SHOs waiting for SPR posts or another training job, SPRs waiting for Consultant posts). For those who have come over recently and passed PLAB, this means that they will never get a job( Please note that for legal purposes EU candidates are considered as local grads and will take up jobs at par with UK graduates). The precipitate nature of this decision without any consultation or any grace time to make alternative arrangements is highly objectionable.

Overseas doctors associations, including the British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin( BAPIO) are planning to protest the same. Dr Satheesh Mathew , a Consultant Paediatrician from London and a BAPIO office bearer is planning a peaceful protest march by doctors in London, I am forwarding a mail by him in this regard, Please forward this mail to every overseas doctor you know and make this protest a big success. Further activities in this regard will be planned soon by various overseas doctors associations.Please look out for updates. Also please raise awareness of this burning issue in your Hospital/Trust and write letters to the authorities againist this.

Regards

Anjay Pillai

Research Fellow, Paediatrics

Airedale NHS Trust

Remember: This is not your usual chain mail. It is your career at stake!. Pleae forward to anybody who might support this cause!

Any further queries about the march please contact Dr Satheesh Mathew directly at : satheeshmathew2003@yahoo.co.uk

........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Letter from Dr Satheesh Mathew:

Dear friends,

You have heard from Dr. Ramesh Mehta that we are planning on a

peaceful demonstration in front of Department of Health. Sooner the

better. I have been entrusted with the responsibility of organising

this demonstration on behalf of BAPIO. We are also planning on

signing petitions to be submitted to the Health Secretary.

I do not know of any other medical organisation, which has organised

such a demonstration at least within the last twenty-five years. We

will be holding a preliminary meeting in my hospital with a handful

of members next week. The week after we will hold a bigger meeting

in Eastham. If any one knows of a venue, which will hold, about 100

people please let me know. Then depending upon the response we will

hold the demonstration in front of Department of health as soon as

is practicable.

I keep on saying that there are about 5000 post plab unemployed

doctors in this country. If there are 5000 PPUD's then we should

have at least 5000 doctors for our demonstration in Central London.

We cannot expect others to fight for us. We have to take

responsibility and fight for our cause. I also hope many other

doctors currently in training and more senior people to join us.

About Seniors – many of them are already British citizens, many of

their children are already local graduates and there others who are

in Medical schools. This new rule if they look at it with selfish

intend is good for them in the short term but not in the long

term. I hope that many of the seniors will also be able to join us

for the demonstration.

Dr. Satheesh Mathew

Consultant Paediatrician

Newham University Hospital

London, E13 8SL

Phone: (W) 02073639274

(H) 02082520593

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Hi folks,

I agree with others that it is for the work permit that they have to PROVE that home grown doctors were not available for that post.However i am not sure whether it can be extended to other people too.

Hey ...looka t this peaceful protest which we as psychiatrists should definitely participate mainly regarding the plight of the current doctors who are in the midway in the training .

Just a thought :It seems we are still ruled by the british!!!!

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good point rao2 ,, actually makes sense ,but think of why the need for the extension for a 5th year ,,the offical satnce is to be at par with eropean regulations,, do u or anybody else haev an explantion ,, my fear is that when u r ready for indefinate stay it wont be franted on teh grounds of not being employed beacsue eu docs have filled the shortages!!! plz keep sharing evrybody and remebr the topic here is mainly for people on hsmp

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i think that extension of hsmp etc will not depend on a job and may be given,but getting a job ill be the biggest hurdle in a few years.it is obvious when they speak of uk and eu graduates that the job market is going to be protectionist.there are many local engineers,accountants in the private sector out of employment but these posts are filled by foreigners.it seems that the medical field is becomming protectionists.i guess any sort of visa is no assurance if one is an img even if one is a citizen.i think in todays climate it is very important that those who can move into some sort of permanent job i.e sas jobs do so soon.the eu influx will saturate the sysytem very soon.those who can't and in basic and higher training should get together and lobby the local,regional tutors,bma and lobby nationally.it is unfair that those in training be affected.it will be interesting to see how BMA reacts to this esp after taking hefty fees.it is important to remember that it is their country and this problem has to be dealt tactfully and polietly as possible.

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correct me if i am wrong guys- if someone has a HSMP visa does not that bring him/her in par with EU and British graduates in as much as the employing trusts not having to obtain a work permit? My understanding is,or I may be completely wrong, the clause, for the trusts having to prove there are not enough home grown doctors only applies when trusts have to apply for a work permit, but if someone has HSMP, and is a eligible candidate, then the question does not arise unless of course they are completely doing away with equal opportunity policy which is obviously not clear yet.

Sorry Rao2, HSMP holders wont be competing with locals. First of all the criteria for the interview(1st) will be u should be a local. If u r hsmp or work permit or even permanent resd doesnt make u eligible to apply for it. In 2nd interview( if it takes place) people already having work permits or other valid visas might have some advantage but not guarenteed. The only adv will be u can stay until ur visa expires and hope u will get a job. even then its not at all guarenteed that u will get a job for more than 6 months, in which case u will be back to square one every 6 months that to if u succeed in getting a job. the other thing is if they cant find a local they might not offer the same training post, they might convert into trust grade.

It surprises me when people in Psych are bit relaxed comparing to their counterparts in other fields, its nothing but ignorance or denial. we r focusssing or thinking only in the lines of current changes. we should learn from the current situation and watchout for any other problems as well by thinking in a broader perspective.

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correct me if i am wrong guys- if someone has a HSMP visa does not that bring him/her in par with EU and British graduates in as much as the employing trusts not having to obtain a work permit? My understanding is,or I may be completely wrong, the clause, for the trusts having to prove there are not enough home grown doctors only applies when trusts have to apply for a work permit, but if someone has HSMP, and is a eligible candidate, then the question does not arise unless of course they are completely doing away with equal opportunity policy which is obviously not clear yet.

Sorry Rao2, HSMP holders wont be competing with locals. First of all the criteria for the interview(1st) will be u should be a local. If u r hsmp or work permit or even permanent resd doesnt make u eligible to apply for it. In 2nd interview( if it takes place) people already having work permits or other valid visas might have some advantage but not guarenteed. The only adv will be u can stay until ur visa expires and hope u will get a job. even then its not at all guarenteed that u will get a job for more than 6 months, in which case u will be back to square one every 6 months that to if u succeed in getting a job. the other thing is if they cant find a local they might not offer the same training post, they might convert into trust grade.

It surprises me when people in Psych are bit relaxed comparing to their counterparts in other fields, its nothing but ignorance or denial. we r focusssing or thinking only in the lines of current changes. we should learn from the current situation and watchout for any other problems as well by thinking in a broader perspective.

Dear Yvrr, you mention 'First of all the criteria for the interview(1st) will be u should be a local'. What is the source of this information? I don't understand what this 2nd interview is about. Judging by the number of threads and responses over the issue, psychiatric trainees are anything but relaxed! Until a clearer picture emerges there is absolutely no point catastrophizing. At the end of the day, if  indeed changes occur along the speculated lines, there is very little we can do.

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listen everybody ,, i fully agree with the view that we shoulnt panic,, ther is very little we can do b4 we understand how the system is actully going to work and if any changes would be introduced to it .

in my understanding a key issue is whether under the new point based system hsmp will fall under tier 1 or 2 ,, most likey tier 1 ,, if this is the case then hsmp holders need not panic,, firstly they when applying for jobs need not worry about thier employers applying for work permits therefore the employer wont have to prove that they cant fill the post with localor eu graduates,,this is important secondly under tier 1 u dont need to have a job offer to start with to be able to stay in the country which to some is as equly as important

now we need more research into how hsmp fits into the tier system ,,check this out and find more ...

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_03_07/uk/government_reveals_immigration_points_system.htm

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Hi cyclothymic,

I understand that there is a new tier system coming in place.

Tier 1 where u dont have to have a job offer.

Tier 2 where u have to have a job offer.

New guidelines in Homeoffice website published today:

If a doctor takes up a shortage medical post then you fall under TIer 1 and get easy ILR within 2-3 years.

If a doctor takes up non shortage medical posts then we fall under Tier 2 and still gets ILR but not sure of the time.But we have to have a job offer for this Tier 2.

(Shortage posts are all consultant posts and Non-shortage posts are all the rest)

Sometimes they say shortage posts are also mentioned as Short term shortage posts and who decides them????

However we dont know yet whether the current HSMP would have to go into the tier system(The BBC Website says the homeoffice is not sure)

Really not sure where this shortage and non shortage posts is going to lead into....Another blow i think

What are other peoples ideas on this??

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yes it is not clear but i guess that is the risky aspect of it.bma should be involved as early as possible as they have the greatest clout with the govt.it will be interesting to see what stand the bma will take in regard to this changing problem.their stand and action will define who they are.i guess there should be attempts to protect doctors already in training from these rules.that is the only fair thing.for this to happen requests and pressure should be applied now.first to clarify how these changes will affect current img docs in training and employment both at junior and senior levels.secondly to allow these docs to continue in training and complete higher training.the risk with wait and see, is that with such a stark release from doh and home office, the cull when it starts and gains momentum will be too big to stop.bma and other organisations should be involved NOW.

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doodoo , msot liek y hsmp on tier 1 stil have to wait and see ,, look it up on workpermits.com it says that ,, keep looking i ll too,good luck

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I spoke with an immigration lawyer.He said that HSMP will not help in anyway in getting a job after the new rules come into effect.he said that EU docs many who already are floating around without jobs will take maximum advantage and saturate the jobs.He said that non eu docs will not be able to challenge this in court even the european courts will throw this out.The law is to protect EU residents.He can already see changes in many levels of employment where EU residents are filling.He also feels that an extension of residence for ILR on HSMP is not good as the law can be changed and most likely will be changed to the advantage of EU residents and total disadvantage of non EU residents.He feels that there is a shift in the home office to limit and send back non EU people not in employment and laws will continue to change along this line.He feels that docs who cannot show employment will be asked to return to their countries, and they will do this by manipulating the HSMP or other visa's.He said that the only people who will be relatively safe are those on permanent contracts.He was quite frank.Another alarming news was about a trust planning to cut 1000 jobs soon,this will include consultants.So if they are going to do this for UK residents you can imagine that non EU residents have no chance at all.

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xyz what visa are u on??????????????

i spoke with an immgration officer who said that hsmp is the same as tier one under the new point based system and that one is on hsmp then u dont need to reapply under this new system , now not beng over optimistic but guys i think thats good news ,, if u can get on a spr rotation for the next 4 years ,,then what woudl stop u applyoing and getting ILR????

also as far as i remebr not all spr application forms require u to state what ur current immgration state is am i wrongthere???

would anybody of u trade a possibel spr postion for a staff grade permant post ??? lets see some opinions here

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I'm on PFT ,1 and half years SHO thinking of HSMP.i just do not want to waste any more money and then end up having no job and leaving.If you really talk to people and look at the situation you can see it is going to become very grim jobwise.I am not convinced that HSMP will help in anyway as jobs will go to EU docs and not to HSMP,or WP holders or even ILR and citizens who are non EU graduates after july 2006.The clear part of DOH release is jobs for EU docs first.I've got the message.As I said I am going to stop spending any more money on these money making schemes,stop going for expensive courses and save my money.I think many are in denial and thinking up rules themselves.Be realistic and practical.Trusts are cutting consultant posts,watch BBC.I feel best option is permanent middle grade but unfortunately I do not qualify.Worst scenario be an spr,after 4 years no staff grade posts as posts very few taken up by EU docs or one is overqualified ,and no consultant posts.very likely.best middle grade,if not move to Aus,if not save every penny and go home. :( :(

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i think i agree with xyz on some terms....

after all guys, this is their country. we cant come here and start demanding for jobs and expect them to roll out the red carpet. this is a cycle which has been repeating.

they shut the doors...in about 10 years....they run out of home grown doctors and start opening doors again. people like us come streaming in and the whole thing gets repeated again.

this time UK is taking the US route....making it more difficult for outsiders to come in.

its important to keep all options open and please dont risk too much if you have family, kids, etc. saving money is vital me thinks.....

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xyz , yes ur pft is a bit of heachce ,but relax,, get ur hsmp done quick ,,be abit more optimsitic ,,frankly i thought the lawyer u talked to is a little bit on teh imulsive side ,, read whats being posted on the net , ,every indication is given that hsmp is equal lto tier 1 ,,infact the whoel system is jsut another side of the coin to the existing one , eu peoel have been here for a whuel , dont mean they wil swapm the nhs ,, as for jobs we are in shortage already and the dynamics of appointing to posts wont necesarliy be differnt to what they are now

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yes nothing is clear and it may take a while for things to become difficult if it does.i guess associations like bma should be involved now.hope for the best.i think things will become clearer in about six months.pressure from bma will make things clearer sooner and this should be a priority.

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Bagadia, its good you can see the situation.I think that as nothing is certain and things could potentially go very wrong,the only thing I can do is save every penny so in the worst scenario I will have some savings to help me.I am going to stop unnecessary shopping.Start selling things I can. This includes my nearly new car which now looks like a reckless buy Sell it before the value goes down.Stop paying for and travelling to all these courses.I just can't imagine what those with children and mortgages will do without a job.If I do not have a job I will leave as soon as possible and not waste my money on some silly visa.This country is very expensive even with a job.So I guess the only and smart thing for people in my situation with no certainity of what is going to happen is to really tighten my belt and cut down on all non essential expenses.

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Dear XYZ,

U r frightening the s*** out of people with ur honesty!!!

NB: There is apparently a Chinese curse - which on translation roughly means

'May u live in interesting times'

Hmmm.......very interesting times ahead! :'( :-/ :o

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