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B.Simpson

Number of ST posts - Finally here !!!

36 posts in this topic

Well I guess we all knew abt such figures from our respective deaneries. What Was that recently abt 1800 extra ST positions in psychiatry??? Lord Warner!!! Is that included or iit will be.?

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there seems to be some bizarre omissions- no old age jobs for west midlands?!?!??!?

are they serious?

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ummm,

It states number of ST3 posts and above. As I understand it there is no clarification of exactly how many ST4 posts are available!!!

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I think it says ST3 & above as it is a common column for the other specialities as well where ST3 is equivalent to ST4 in psych - all those posts in that column in psych are speciality posts - hence they would be ST4 automatically.

Hope that makes sense

Cheers

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Hope this helps ( and I hope I've got it right)

ST1 341

ST2 352

ST3 337


Total 1030

ST3 and above (less than total number of ST3 posts ? that can't be right!)

321

FTSTA

Y1 225

Y2 179

Y3 180


Total 584

ALL posts ?=1935

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hey guys... how many numbered posts were there before?

i think it would give us a better idea as to what the current competition is going to be and how much 'numbers' they have actually taken out from the system..

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Hi

What does this mean practically? ::)

How many SHOs are there currently?

Without knowing those figures the above data just gives incomplete information?

If anyone has any clues please enlighten.

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What does this mean practically?  

How many SHOs are there currently?

From the royal college 2005 census there were 1968 psychiatric SHO's in England.

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Thanks cmo,So it seems quite a few of us will have to take up career grade posts.

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What does this mean practically?

How many SHOs are there currently?

From the royal college 2005 census there were 1968 psychiatric SHO's in England.

but the SHO wont be able to apply for ST1

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I think it would be much more complicated than simply total number of SHO s and total number of posts.. Some particular posts and specialities would probably be more competitive

Its obvious from these numbers that there will be competition and that many would have to

choose to take up FTSTA/Staff Grade jobs

Dont think ST1 applies to any of us

ST2 seems to be easire to get in than ST3 (which includes anyone from people just having passed there part 1 till anyone who hasnt yet passed their part 2) - Should the person who s just passed the part 1 be preferred over someone who s not managed to pass the part 2 ??

It seemed like when we first heard about it we were told that exams would matter... and after all the former have done whatever was to be expected from them at their stage of training ...

ST 4 specialists posts would probably be harder to get than general adult (just my view)

Think there are people who have a particular interest in a speciality and would be able to demonstrate competencies in tht speciality better than others

I can imagine forensics to be difficult esp cos of lesser numbers of posts.. Child and old age may be easier becase of more number of posts and child and LD may be easier because of lesser competition

And different regions would probably be more competitive.. Londons got the maximum number of posts but would probably be most competitive

So would other big deaneries like Brimingham, Manchester, Nottingham....

But how much would one be preferred if they belonged to the area???

Traditionally one would be preferred if they had committments in the region (e.g. in and SpR intervew) but I guess the basic premise of MMC is that you cant do tht anymore... or could you...

I think some deaneries may (conciously or unconciously) prefer people that belong to the same rotation.. not sure if that s right or wrong... Certainly goes aginst the whole point of the MMC transitional arrangements... But the point being that for these deaneries the competition would be more contained... Other places that are being more fair and not giving any credit to where the person currently is and besing the entire process on the way they performed in the interview would probably be more competitive

Any thoughts?

I m sure we can Intellectualize this to wits end and still not have a clue what led to ones being selected/rejected in the process

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I'm sure there's going to be some applicants from the expanded EU who would want to come to the UK. I know that Psychiatry might not be their first choice, but still some are going to trickle in and add to the competition :'(

Since the training in the continent is structured slightly differently from the UK, my permutation is that most of those coming to Psychiatry would be applying for the pre-examination grades(ST1-2) since they'd be unable to provide qualifications equivalent to our part 1.

Those of them who have exams tucked under their belts will probably be eligible for the ST4 anyway...

That's my thinking...or rather, my hope...

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I think some deaneries may (conciously or unconciously) prefer people that belong to the same rotation.. not sure if that s right or wrong... Certainly goes aginst the whole point of the MMC transitional arrangements... But the point being that for these deaneries the competition would be more contained... Other places that are being more fair and not giving any credit to where the person currently is and besing the entire process on the way they performed in the interview would probably be more competitive

I don't think there is any doubt that the interview panels will prefer people from the local area. I accept MMC was supposed to do away with this but once the essential criteria are met you are making a decision based on less concrete desirable criteria. The panel will be considering what your attachment is to the area, why you would want to work there and whether or not you are going to stick round once the training is over to fill a locally vacant post. I think anybody could argue for London, most people know someone there, you could argue that you have always wanted to move to a bigger city, greater choice of specialty options e.t.c but when you get to the smaller deaneries where you know nobody I think you will struggle to explain why you chose that deanery over another.

The interview is not a blinded process they know where you are from and where you trained, the panel are local consultants even the lay people if they have them will be local. I think regardless of the attempt to make it a level field there will be a preference in their mind for local candidates and therefore your best chance will come within your own deanery.

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ST2 seems to be easire to get in than ST3

I agree with u there.I feel competition at ST2 is going to be the least. People who have cleared their part1 in their first attempt and have less that 24 months experience in Psychiatry must be able to walk into the run through training if they apply for ST2, as they not only satisfy the essential criteria, but desirable criteria as well!

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ST 4 specialists posts would probably be harder to get than general adult (just my view)

I disagree. Competition for General adult posts have always been more, and will remain so. Why do u think it will be less compared to child or old age?

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HI Rajaraj,

A pass in Part 1 is the essential criteria for ST3.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/PDF/ST2%20psychiatry%20person%20specification%20final%20271006.pdf

A pass in Part1 is eligible for ST3

Hence, those who have passed part1 will be over qualified.

Where as those with some experience in Psychiatry with no Part1 will be eligible for ST2

and the freshers to psychiatry will be eligible for ST1.

I hope I am right.

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yes manic, I think u r right. These person specifications seem to be changing everyday. Last time I saw it, it said that Part 1 was desirable criteria for ST2, but it no longer seems to be the case. So, there must be a million people with part 1 who will be applying for ST3! ::)

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ST 4 specialists posts would probably be harder to get than general adult (just my view)

I disagree. Competition for General adult posts have always been more, and will remain so. Why do u think it will be less compared to child or old age?

On second thought looking at the number of posts available I feel almost any ST4 post shouldn't be hard to get (except forensics)

I certainly dont think Child should be hard for anyone to get !!

Presumably these numbers are a reflection of the way they ve recruited SpR s in the last 3 - 6 months.. i.e. If a particular deanery didn't recruit millions of SpR s to a particular speciality then they have more number of ST4 posts than other places

Which brings us to the same boring question about calculation of numbers - i.e. Is the total number of MMC run through posts essentially the total number of SpR posts that there used to be ?

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HI all,

I am a Norther deanery psychaitric trainee looking to apply for st3 level psost coming jan.

Here is my proposal to those in other denaries,

I will try to gather the follwoing information (just numbers) and give it to those members who are ready to trade the same kind of info from their own deanery area.

A. TOTAL NO OF TRAINEE PSYCHAITRIC SHOS IN NORTHERN DENAERY

B TOTAL NO OF TRAINEE PSYCHIATRIC SHOS IN N DEANERY WITH PART 1 PASS

C TOTAL NO OF TRAINEE PSYCHAITRIC SHOS IN N DEANERY WITH PART2 PASS

i allready have half of the informationa nd i just will need 2-3 days more to find the rest.

IS ANYBODY OUT THERE INTERESTED IN TRADING INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR OWN DEANERIES?

this should help us realistically estimate the best chances of all the deaneries while making the choices of which denaeries to apply.

(this would only be an ESTIMATE since we will not actually know how many else will apply for that deanery from all over the country but atleast we will know whats the kind of competition from the deaneries' own trainees)

if we are able to gather all the 15 deaneries information by 15th jan, i dont mind making the numbers public in this forum, so that all could benifit.

FINAL REQUEST, PLEASE ACT IN GOOD FAITH-DONT SEND ME WRONG NUMBERS-I WILL BE ACTING IN GOOD FAITH .

best of luck to all

Raghavendra

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Hi

Think that would be very helpful

So how does this work again?

Should individual people email you directly with the above information about their deaneries and then you would email them back wih the numbers of one of the other deaneries that they re planning to apply for??

How about people just post the details here directly? Even if they're rough guesses and then they can be corrected later on as more people see them

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hi

i think lets play it fair.post the numbers as suggested in the first post on open forum and let people decide it for themselves.this would make the chances of some one 'not' acting in good faith even less

cheers

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I agree and dont think people have anything to lose by posting that information

May even help people by not applying for jobs that are terribly competitive anyways...

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HI all,

IS ANYBODY OUT THERE INTERESTED IN TRADING INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR OWN DEANERIES?

this should help us realistically estimate the best chances of all the deaneries while making the choices of which denaeries to apply.

(this would only be an ESTIMATE since we will not actually know how many else will apply for that deanery from all over the country but atleast we will know whats the kind of competition from the deaneries' own trainees)

if we are able to gather all the 15 deaneries information by 15th jan, i dont mind making the numbers public in this forum, so that all could benifit.

FINAL REQUEST, PLEASE ACT IN GOOD FAITH-DONT SEND ME WRONG NUMBERS-I WILL BE ACTING IN GOOD FAITH .

best of luck to all

Raghavendra

Why should anyone trade here.

Everyone has to face reality.

Honest people don't need to trade.

It is better that if at all this is posted it should be open and not traded.

We are all professionals here and not bussiness men or politicians.

Thats my opinion.

Whatever happens everything will be open in the application pack I hope.

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