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tinpot

Do you have to pass exam(s) to proceed to ST4?

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Does this vary from area to area?

Despite what was said by the Royal College last year during MMC, in our area they now appear to be saying that you can't progress to ST4 without passing PartII or Papers 3 and 4, the results of which only come out in the start of July. How can that work? It seems to make a mockery of 'run-through' training.

This leaves several people, who had been told that they had years to pass the exam with only one shot at it.

The exam will be quite new and no-one knows the pass rate yet. What are they saying in your area??

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Yes it is unfair! And probably u can also empathise with people in my situation, who had only one shot to get on to run through training and now the doors have been closed on us

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Well Schizo you seem to be fixed with the idea that finishing mrcpsych gurantees you an spr post in the old system. You must have got your mrcpsych when you applied for st4 the only thing you need to do is to look into want went wrong and work on it rather than waiting for the run through program to collapse and again whats the gurantee that uncoupling st3 and st4 will gurantee you a place.

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Well Schizo you seem to be fixed with the idea that finishing mrcpsych gurantees you an spr post in the old system. You must have got your mrcpsych when you applied for st4 the only thing you need to do is to look into want went wrong and work on it rather than waiting for the run through program to collapse and again whats the gurantee that uncoupling st3 and st4 will gurantee you a place.  

certainly not the case sandoc. I was under no illusion that passing MRCPsych meant SpR. But at least I could try again and again, if necessary, till I got there. U r saying that I should look into what went wrong last time and work on that. Fine, I can and am doing it- but if at the end of it all, they say that there will be no uncoupling, I won't even be able to apply. Of course, I never said that I would walk in to ST4 if there is uncoupling, but I can at least try.

I perfectly understand where u ST3 guys r coming from. I am not telling that if ST3 guys don't get exams, they should be thrown out of the system permanently- I don't think anybody should be permanently shown the door, and careers should not come to a standstill, just because of being in the wrong stage of ur career at the wrong time

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Going back to Shebas query..

The big guys in my place still dont know what will happen if one fails the exam in july.

i emailed the london deanery a month ago - no reply yet.

clearly unfair as a majority of trainees even in future will have a 6 month window to pass the exam - they will gain eligibility at 30 months and will have to move into st4 at 36 months with a pass in the exam. What mockery!!

Has anybody else got a different view??

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Originally the pass rate for the new exams was going to be designed to be over 90% to allow people to continue through run through training, but now, we don't know...

Sorry schizoaffective, MMC was dreadful and I appreciate that I had better fortune than some, however this is the next example of unreasonable impositions from on high.

Is anybody out there a member of Remedy yet? I wonder whether they might look at this?

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so far this is a bit of an unknown.

prof bhugra has apparantly said at some events that no part II = no st4, though there has not yet been official communication of this position to rotations (as far as i know).

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interesting...I wonder what MMC and PMETB have to say about Dinesh's opinion...?

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the rumours are that initially PMETB wanted RT regrdless exam progression but later the colleges insisted for the exams and PMETB had to listen (hmm they listened for once!?); nobody had decided how it will work in terms of transition from basic to specialist raining after all

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Postgrad office told me this am that College decided yesterday- we DO have to get MRCPsych to progress to ST4. So they'd better pass more than 39.6% of people in Spring, or they'll be no service!

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Postgrad office told me this am that College decided yesterday- we DO have to get MRCPsych to progress to ST4. So they'd better pass more than 39.6% of people in Spring, or they'll be no service!

Well I am not sure about that, ST4s( SpRs) are supposed to be supernumery anyway. Infact if only 50 % manage to pass, then there will be plenty of trainees to do first oncalls ( in the form of FTSTA3s) and that will bring down the banding to 1F( if there is one) and it will be cost effective for trusts as well....

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The college are quite clear that yes you have to pass the MRCPsych before progressing to ST4. (See latest regulations). In fact this is a position supported by the Trainees committee of the college.

HOWEVER

PMETB say no such thing. It is PMETB who approve posts and supervise the progress through Speciality Training.

The government and PMETB got a bloody nose because of the MTOS disaster and are not standing up to the colleges in the same way they did 1 yr ago. EVEN SO- it is PMETB who control these things, and the college are being presumptuous in dictating things in this fashion.

It may turn out that the college retain power, but at the moment I would advise you to write to PMETB and ask for their opinion on the matter.

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So far PMETB is useless. Everything is done by the college. Even article 14 applications are sent to the college for approval !!! PMETB is a waste of resources, money and time. Can anyone recall aany argument between PMETB & College in which PMETB won?? I doubt

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It is definitely the case. I had been to the Wessex Specialty Induction day on the 13th of Dec and the Dean categorically said that without the part 2 and other competencies you cannot progress to ST 4. you need to take time out and work as FTSTA till you clear the exam. For trainees in run through recruited in 2007 you will be able to come back into training.

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[highlight]Well I am not sure about that, ST4s( SpRs) are supposed to be supernumery anyway. [/highlight]

Can anyone tell me if this is still true?

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Netnutter,

which deanery said that if you are 2007 intake, you can re-enter training if you fail the exam but later pass it as an FTSTA? Are any other deaneries taking that position?

During the MMC process, we were told that run-through would be 98% and the exam had to be passed over a couple of years.

Unless the RCPsych dramatically changes the pass mark, of 39%, in their new-format exam in the spring they will have effectively destroyed the principle of run-through training in one fell swoop.

What makes it absurd is the the results of the spring exam will not be announced until

1st of Jul 2008. Potentially a quarter to a half of ST3s may therefore be unable to progress to ST4, at only a month's notice and presumably also may be out of a job at a month's notice(with kids, mortgages etc..)

If they can't move to ST4 and the lower grades have already been filled then the trust will potentially lose most of it's most able SHOs at one fell swoop, who previously would have had 2 or 3 attempts available at this exam. The trust will also be short of several ST4s who could potentially end up having to move almost instantly from anywhere in the country after some kind of rushed application process.

Many of us are now facing a very difficult exam, knowing, like with MMC, that our whole career may hinge on the outcome, irrespective of what may befall us, such as illness, bereavement etc at the exam time.

Just like MMC, run-through training is becoming a one-shot deal, unless netnutter's deanery's position is universally held and if so, then I don't understand how workforce planning can cope.

:-?

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Its not so drastic- its not a one-shot thing at all I don't think. The 2 deaneries I've had links with have from the outset said that if you are st3 and fail the exam then you move to ftsta for 1 year and if you pass it then you come back to run through at st4. I think its pretty reasonable really.... so if you take the exam at the beginning of st3 then effectively you have 1 year to pass and another year if you fail that- its not impossible you know!

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Your positive attitude is heartwarming.

Sounds like your deanery has a reasonable plan. I don't think it is universal though - ours hasn't made any such commitments as far as I'm aware. Also, will there be any FTSTA slots still available in July?

worry worry ... :-/

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